• EM TECH Stern Rawhide feature award

    From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 09:05:17
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 10:00:53
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2021/09/08 9:05 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd


    Hi Todd,

    One area to start with on Stern EM games are the wiper discs for the
    bonus, ball count, etc. units. Often one of more traces has arced over
    and made a carbon path to the next and you get random oddness happening.

    Carve out any carbonized PCB you find - put shiny tape on the contact
    face side of the PCB, then fill the hole with epoxy glue. The shiny tape
    is to give you a smooth surface where the wiper runs over. Let it cure,
    and see if the problem goes away.

    If no arcing, then check the contacts on the suspect relay blades. Any
    of the rivets showing carbon black on the side that doesn't contact
    anything? That is indication of a loose rivet - solder or crimp it down
    in place.

    ChiCoin/Stern EMs are a bit of a pain...there are other tricks but that
    is enough for now.

    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 15:06:45
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:01:08 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 9:05 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd

    Hi Todd,

    One area to start with on Stern EM games are the wiper discs for the
    bonus, ball count, etc. units. Often one of more traces has arced over
    and made a carbon path to the next and you get random oddness happening.

    Carve out any carbonized PCB you find - put shiny tape on the contact
    face side of the PCB, then fill the hole with epoxy glue. The shiny tape
    is to give you a smooth surface where the wiper runs over. Let it cure,
    and see if the problem goes away.

    If no arcing, then check the contacts on the suspect relay blades. Any
    of the rivets showing carbon black on the side that doesn't contact anything? That is indication of a loose rivet - solder or crimp it down
    in place.

    ChiCoin/Stern EMs are a bit of a pain...there are other tricks but that
    is enough for now.

    John :-#)#

    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    Hi John,
    Thank you for responding to my post. In this case the steppers are in excellent condition. I have owned this machine for many years and it was playing fine, other than being sluggish. It was very dirty and sooty on the bottom board, so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it. The cleaning did make the game play fast and snappy.
    Todd
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 15:53:23
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2021/09/08 3:06 p.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:01:08 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 9:05 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd

    Hi Todd,

    One area to start with on Stern EM games are the wiper discs for the
    bonus, ball count, etc. units. Often one of more traces has arced over
    and made a carbon path to the next and you get random oddness happening.

    Carve out any carbonized PCB you find - put shiny tape on the contact
    face side of the PCB, then fill the hole with epoxy glue. The shiny tape
    is to give you a smooth surface where the wiper runs over. Let it cure,
    and see if the problem goes away.

    If no arcing, then check the contacts on the suspect relay blades. Any
    of the rivets showing carbon black on the side that doesn't contact
    anything? That is indication of a loose rivet - solder or crimp it down
    in place.

    ChiCoin/Stern EMs are a bit of a pain...there are other tricks but that
    is enough for now.

    John :-#)#

    Hi John,

    Thank you for responding to my post. In this case the steppers are in excellent condition. I have owned this machine for many years and it was playing fine, other than being sluggish. It was very dirty and sooty on the bottom board, so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it. The cleaning did make the game play fast and snappy.

    Todd


    Hi Todd,

    If you unplugged anything to work on the game, check the pins of the
    plugs, they used AMP plugs as I recall, not as reliable as the Jones
    plugs the others all used. It isn't uncommon for a pin to be pushed
    backwards and not make connection for these games.

    Do you have the schematics, that always helps.

    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 16:00:58
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 3:06 p.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:01:08 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 9:05 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd

    Hi Todd,

    One area to start with on Stern EM games are the wiper discs for the
    bonus, ball count, etc. units. Often one of more traces has arced over
    and made a carbon path to the next and you get random oddness happening. >>
    Carve out any carbonized PCB you find - put shiny tape on the contact
    face side of the PCB, then fill the hole with epoxy glue. The shiny tape >> is to give you a smooth surface where the wiper runs over. Let it cure, >> and see if the problem goes away.

    If no arcing, then check the contacts on the suspect relay blades. Any
    of the rivets showing carbon black on the side that doesn't contact
    anything? That is indication of a loose rivet - solder or crimp it down >> in place.

    ChiCoin/Stern EMs are a bit of a pain...there are other tricks but that >> is enough for now.

    John :-#)#

    Hi John,

    Thank you for responding to my post. In this case the steppers are in excellent condition. I have owned this machine for many years and it was playing fine, other than being sluggish. It was very dirty and sooty on the bottom board, so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it. The cleaning did make the game play fast and snappy.

    Todd

    Hi Todd,

    If you unplugged anything to work on the game, check the pins of the
    plugs, they used AMP plugs as I recall, not as reliable as the Jones
    plugs the others all used. It isn't uncommon for a pin to be pushed backwards and not make connection for these games.

    Do you have the schematics, that always helps.
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    Hi John,
    That is a very good thought. Yes I did unplug many connectors to remove the playfield and bottom board. Perhaps one is not snug. I will check all of these plugs. Yes I have schematics and found the path of switches as mentioned in my first post but all checked out fine. I think it's gotta be one of those connectors because ive gone over and over all the bottom board relays and all looks fine. I will check all connectors and report back.
    Thanks,
    Todd
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 17:38:05
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 7:01:04 PM UTC-4, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:53:36 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 3:06 p.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 1:01:08 PM UTC-4, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2021/09/08 9:05 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    Folks I am at my wits end and need another set of eyes on this issue. My Rawhide is awarding the feature when it shouldn't. So this game has features like extra bonus, extra ball, lites spinners and bumpers. The features alternate with various playfield switches. When you land in either of the 2 holes it scores the lit feature. Well mine goes beyond that and scores the lit feature any time the score motor runs. So if I hit a 500 or 5000 point target it scores the lit feature. Even after ball drain when the score motor runs to collect the bonus it scores the lit feature on the third bonus count. It is so bad that if the lit feature is double bonus it starts collecting single bonus for the first 2, then moves into collecting double bonus for the rest as the score motor scored the feature. I have checked, cleaned, adjusted and looked for shorted tabs on the following, outhole relay, score motor switches C1 and C2, feature change relay, 500 hole relay and both feature hole switches. Any help is appreciated.
    Thanks, Todd

    Hi Todd,

    One area to start with on Stern EM games are the wiper discs for the
    bonus, ball count, etc. units. Often one of more traces has arced over >> and made a carbon path to the next and you get random oddness happening.

    Carve out any carbonized PCB you find - put shiny tape on the contact >> face side of the PCB, then fill the hole with epoxy glue. The shiny tape
    is to give you a smooth surface where the wiper runs over. Let it cure, >> and see if the problem goes away.

    If no arcing, then check the contacts on the suspect relay blades. Any >> of the rivets showing carbon black on the side that doesn't contact
    anything? That is indication of a loose rivet - solder or crimp it down >> in place.

    ChiCoin/Stern EMs are a bit of a pain...there are other tricks but that >> is enough for now.

    John :-#)#

    Hi John,

    Thank you for responding to my post. In this case the steppers are in excellent condition. I have owned this machine for many years and it was playing fine, other than being sluggish. It was very dirty and sooty on the bottom board, so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it. The cleaning did make the game play fast and snappy.

    Todd

    Hi Todd,

    If you unplugged anything to work on the game, check the pins of the plugs, they used AMP plugs as I recall, not as reliable as the Jones
    plugs the others all used. It isn't uncommon for a pin to be pushed backwards and not make connection for these games.

    Do you have the schematics, that always helps.
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    Hi John,

    That is a very good thought. Yes I did unplug many connectors to remove the playfield and bottom board. Perhaps one is not snug. I will check all of these plugs. Yes I have schematics and found the path of switches as mentioned in my first post but all checked out fine. I think it's gotta be one of those connectors because ive gone over and over all the bottom board relays and all looks fine. I will check all connectors and report back.

    Thanks,
    Todd
    Hi John, Reseating the plugs did nothing. I will go back to the schematics. I must be missing something. I know exactly what I am chasing. There are two ways to score a feature on the playfield, both kickout holes. And the running of the score motor has now become a third way to score a feature. So there doesn't seem to be a lot here. I will go have another look. The Rawhide schematics are not posted on IPDB but Stampede is up and they are the same.
    Todd
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Friday, September 10, 2021 14:37:44
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.


    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Friday, September 10, 2021 21:20:30
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.
    Thanks, Todd
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, September 11, 2021 09:06:06
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd


    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem persist?

    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, September 11, 2021 09:25:50
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is >> stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:38:11
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is >>>> stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3 >>>> motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.


    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, September 11, 2021 20:12:11
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the >>>> unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3 >>>> motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, September 11, 2021 23:13:28
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the >>>>>> unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is >>>>>> stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3 >>>>>> motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If >>>> you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem >>>> persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY


    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, September 12, 2021 09:33:54
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the >>>>>> unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If >>>> you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem >>>> persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of >> them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is >> always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to >> the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, September 12, 2021 11:32:43
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the >>>>>>>> unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3 >>>>>>>> motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If >>>>>> you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem >>>>>> persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of >>>> them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing >>>> when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is >>>> always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to >>>> the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.

    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, September 12, 2021 19:59:48
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of >>>> them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing >>>> when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is >>>> always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around >> with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right >> corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the >> center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure >> out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Sunday, September 12, 2021 21:15:56
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the >>>>>>>>>> unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If >>>>>>>> you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem >>>>>>>> persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of >>>>>> them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing >>>>>> when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is >>>>>> always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to >>>>>> the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around >>>> with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you >>>> could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right >>>> corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the >>>> center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure >>>> out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double >>>> Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874


    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 09:07:20
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you >>>> could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the >>>> plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right >>>> corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when >>>> the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the >>>> center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam >>>> with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure >>>> out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double >>>> Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green >> to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 09:44:00
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2021/09/13 9:07 a.m., ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>>>>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing >>>>>>>> when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around >>>>>> with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you >>>>>> could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the >>>>>> plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right >>>>>> corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when >>>>>> the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the >>>>>> center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam >>>>>> with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure >>>>>> out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double >>>>>> Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green >>>> to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw


    The jumper you show is wrong, it shouldn't be there. Someone (lazy
    tech!) added it to get the scoring to happen when the lower contact is
    is activated, but I expect it has given an unintended consequence.
    What appears to be happening is the top switch - scoring - isn't and as
    it does score when the lower switch is closed and the jumper is to one
    of the two blades of the scoring switch, therefore the other blade of
    that scoring switch is not providing a path. I don't have the schematics handy, but I would be carefully checking the scoring switch wiring!

    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 11:35:08
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get >>>>>>>>>>>> unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that >>>>>>>>>>>> connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit >>>>>>>>>> (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing >>>>>>>> when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around >>>>>> with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you >>>>>> could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the >>>>>> plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right >>>>>> corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when >>>>>> the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the >>>>>> center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam >>>>>> with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure >>>>>> out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double >>>>>> Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green >>>> to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue
    wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature
    Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white
    and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any
    of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes.
    That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's
    green to red-white that would do it.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 11:34:04
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the >>>>>> plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when >>>>>> the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam >>>>>> with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green >>>> to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green >>>> wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the >> Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side >> of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue
    wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white
    and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any
    of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes.
    That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's
    green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.
    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 12:54:34
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you >>>>>>>> could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the >>>>>>>> plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>>>>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when >>>>>>>> the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam >>>>>>>> with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double >>>>>>>> Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green >>>>>> to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green >>>>>> wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3 >>>>>> would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the >>>> Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch >>>> on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side >>>> of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue
    wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature
    Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white
    and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any
    of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes.
    That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's
    green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 12:31:37
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:54:50 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green >>>>>> wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3 >>>>>> would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the >>>> Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there >>>> must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch >>>> on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance >>>> (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue
    wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature >> Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white
    and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any >> of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes.
    That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's
    green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    Ok so I snipped the jumper and the problem is gone, but there is a new problem. The hole that had the jumper (lower hole) now only scores the points and does not award the lit feature. It looks like that is why a previous owner put the jumper in. What would cause this switch to become inoperable? Perhaps someone mixed up some same coloured wires on this switch stack as there are 3 red-white and 2 green wires.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 12:41:26
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 3:31:43 PM UTC-4, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:54:50 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>> On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3 >>>>>> would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there >>>> must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance >>>> (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue >> wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature
    Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white >> and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any >> of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes. >> That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's >> green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    Ok so I snipped the jumper and the problem is gone, but there is a new problem. The hole that had the jumper (lower hole) now only scores the points and does not award the lit feature. It looks like that is why a previous owner put the jumper in. What would cause this switch to become inoperable? Perhaps someone mixed up some same coloured wires on this switch stack as there are 3 red-white and 2 green wires.
    I just noticed that the second tab down has a white-orange wire. So it goes from the bottom tab up like this.
    2 red-white wires to bottom tab.
    blue-red wire to next tab up.
    white-orange wire third tab up
    2 green wires to top tab near playfield.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From Mark@r.g.p@funwithpinball.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 13:50:57
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 9/13/21 1:31 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:54:50 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket. >>>>>>>>>> That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green >>>>>>>> wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3 >>>>>>>> would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the >>>>>> Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there >>>>>> must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch >>>>>> on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance >>>>>> (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side >>>>>> of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire)
    fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue >>>> wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature >>>> Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white
    and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any >>>> of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes.
    That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's >>>> green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    Ok so I snipped the jumper and the problem is gone, but there is a new problem. The hole that had the jumper (lower hole) now only scores the points and does not award the lit feature. It looks like that is why a previous owner put the jumper in. What would cause this switch to become inoperable? Perhaps someone mixed up some same coloured wires on this switch stack as there are 3 red-white and 2 green wires.

    We know the wires to the switch are good because when they were jumpered together the switch behaved as if it were stuck closed. So the problem
    is in the switch. It could be dirty contacts, a bad connection between
    the contact and switch leaf, cold solder joint, etc. You'll have to experiment. Try shorting different parts of the switch together with a
    small screw driver. Start with the lugs and work your way to the
    contacts to see where it stops working.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 13:13:21
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 3:51:07 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 1:31 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:54:50 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3 >>>>>>>> would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there >>>>>> must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance >>>>>> (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire) >>>> fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue >>>> wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature
    Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white >>>> and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any >>>> of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes. >>>> That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's >>>> green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    Ok so I snipped the jumper and the problem is gone, but there is a new problem. The hole that had the jumper (lower hole) now only scores the points and does not award the lit feature. It looks like that is why a previous owner put the jumper in. What would cause this switch to become inoperable? Perhaps someone mixed up some same coloured wires on this switch stack as there are 3 red-white and 2 green wires.

    We know the wires to the switch are good because when they were jumpered together the switch behaved as if it were stuck closed. So the problem
    is in the switch. It could be dirty contacts, a bad connection between
    the contact and switch leaf, cold solder joint, etc. You'll have to experiment. Try shorting different parts of the switch together with a
    small screw driver. Start with the lugs and work your way to the
    contacts to see where it stops working.
    Your right Mark. When I short the tabs where the wires are connected it works. If I short anywhere else on the blades, including the tabs where the wires are, but not shorting the actual wire, I get nothing. And I can tell someone has done soldering on these wires, so it must be a cold solder joint. I will desolder the wires from both tabs and resolder them and that should do it. I will report back.
    --- Synchronet 3.19a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
  • From ThePinballSpot@tcvideo2001@yahoo.ca to rec.games.pinball on Monday, September 13, 2021 19:48:19
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 4:13:26 PM UTC-4, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 3:51:07 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 1:31 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 2:54:50 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 12:34 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 1:35:27 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/13/21 10:07 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 11:16:08 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>> On 9/12/21 8:59 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:32:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>> On 9/12/21 10:33 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 1:14:06 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 9/11/21 9:12 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 1:38:31 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/11/21 10:25 AM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Saturday, September 11, 2021 at 11:06:21 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/10/21 10:20 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 4:37:59 PM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
    On 9/8/21 4:06 PM, ThePinballSpot wrote:

    so I removed it and cleaned everything, including all steppers and all relay switches on the bottom board and the score motor switches that were easily accessible. So I caused this issue but have no idea as to how I did it.

    A common mistake. Does the Bonus Collect relay fire when you get the
    unwanted points? If you start the score motor by hand you you get
    unwanted points?

    One possibility is that the switch on the Bonus Collect relay that
    connects maroon-yellow and blue-red wires (on the Stampede schematic) is
    stuck closed or shorted. That would give you 2000 points for every 1/3
    motor turn.

    /Mark
    Hi Mark, It is not really a ''giving extra points'' issue. That is a byproduct that is caused by the issue at hand. I just gave the example of the end of bonus going into double bonus if that was the lit feature. It would have scored any lit feature including extra ball or lighting spinner or bumpers. I took a day off to relook at the schematics and give it more thought. So the features alternate with various playfield switches and the ONLY way to score the lit feature is by going into either of the two kickout holes. So any movement of the score motor like scoring 500 or 5000 points or collecting end of ball bonus scores the lit feature. I have gone through all associated relays many times. The only thought I now have is there may be a short within the two kickout hole switches. So tomorrow I am going to look in that direction and report back.

    Thanks, Todd

    So the issue is that one of the relays selected by the Feature Unit
    (Spinner Re, Double Bonus Re, or Extra Re) fires when it shouldn't? If
    you block the Motor C2 switch at D20 on the schematic does the problem
    persist?
    Yes Mark, that is exactly the problem. I just tested blocking C2 and the problem is still there.

    So when do the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relays fire? Or is one of
    them always on? If there's a short around the Motor C-2 switch knowing
    when the relays fire might help point to where it is. If one of them is
    always on it could be that the Feature Unit common contact is shorted to
    the green power rail somehow.
    That is a very good question Mark. They actually all start as off at the start of a ball as they should. I know this is a seldom seen game so I did a video to better describe the rules and what is going wrong. Thanks. Todd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwIszpQ65HY

    Here's another experiment but only if you know how to safely poke around
    with the power on. Start a game, advance the feature unit to where you
    could turn on the double bonus if you land in the hole. Then lift the
    plafield and move the plug on the score motor service jack (front right
    corner of the score motor) from the right socket to the left socket.
    That will keep the motor from turning on its own.

    At this point the game should incorrectly light the double bonus when
    the motor turns. So watch the Double Bonus relay (2nd relay back in the
    center of the bottom board) while you slowly turn the score motor cam
    with your hand. If you do that a few times you should be able to figure
    out which score motor switch or switch stack activates when the Double
    Bonus relay fires. That might help find the problem.
    That experiment was very well Mark. I followed your instructions and found the entire C stack (as well as random switches in other stacks) closed when the double bonus relay engaged. So I started with the C stack by running further tests while blocking individual switches one at a time. I discovered that blocking C3 (ball index re lock) did not set off the double bonus relay.

    Are you sure that blocking C3 stops the problem and not C2? C2 is green
    to red-blue. C3 is green to red-black. They probably have their green
    wire solder tabs connected together. It's harder to explain how C3
    would be involved.
    Sorry Mark I just realized the schematics for Rawhide and Stampede are not exactly the same. Yes it is C3 and that score motor switch is the same as C2 on Stampede. Here is a link to proper Rawhide Schematics. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor-won-t-stop-start-relay-won-t-release-stern-rawhide#post-4848874

    If blocking the motor C3 switch (on the Rawhide schematic) prevents the
    Double Bonus or other feature relays from firing, it seems that there
    must be a short around the feature hole switch and the parallel switch
    on the 500 (hole?) relay. If you have a meter, what's the resistance
    (not continuity) between the red-white and red-blue wires on either side
    of those switches?
    Hi Mark. I find it much easier to explain and demonstrate through video. So here is a video. I did find a dead scoring switch in one of the kickout hole stacks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSvuO1SGpKw

    I can't tell much from your video.

    There are two switches under the feature holes:
    - One switch at F32 on the schematic (green wire to white-red wire) >>>> fires the Feature Hole relay.
    - The other switch at C24 on the schematic (red-white wire to red-blue
    wire) fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature
    Unit, and motor switch C3.

    I suspect you have a short across the second switch between red-white >>>> and red-blue wires. I don't see why there should be a jumper across any
    of the four solder tabs on the switch stacks under the Feature holes. >>>> That might be the short. What two wires are jumpered together? If it's
    green to red-white that would do it.
    I will list all the wire colours on the tabs of the switches from the bottom (fires the Spinner, Double Bonus or Extra relay through the Feature) up.
    two red-white wires are on bottom tab.
    blue-red wire is on next tab up. These switches are jumpered and the switch is dead.

    red-white wire is third up and the top lug has two green wires attached. This top switch actuates both the kickout and scoring feature.

    If red-white is jumpered to red-blue the switch is always closed and
    your Double Bonus etc. relays will fire any time the score motor runs.
    Ok so I snipped the jumper and the problem is gone, but there is a new problem. The hole that had the jumper (lower hole) now only scores the points and does not award the lit feature. It looks like that is why a previous owner put the jumper in. What would cause this switch to become inoperable? Perhaps someone mixed up some same coloured wires on this switch stack as there are 3 red-white and 2 green wires.

    We know the wires to the switch are good because when they were jumpered together the switch behaved as if it were stuck closed. So the problem
    is in the switch. It could be dirty contacts, a bad connection between
    the contact and switch leaf, cold solder joint, etc. You'll have to experiment. Try shorting different parts of the switch together with a small screw driver. Start with the lugs and work your way to the
    contacts to see where it stops working.
    Your right Mark. When I short the tabs where the wires are connected it works. If I short anywhere else on the blades, including the tabs where the wires are, but not shorting the actual wire, I get nothing. And I can tell someone has done soldering on these wires, so it must be a cold solder joint. I will desolder the wires from both tabs and resolder them and that should do it. I will report back.
    This issue is a real pain. I now see why the previous owner just gave up and jumpered it. I can get it to work if I hold the switch contacts tightly together, like a jumper. But it wont work properly otherwise. I notice both contacts are rather worn, so I built a new switch to change one out and still not fixed. Unfortunately I am out of new contacts so I will have to build and replace the other switch in the future. The machine is playing great and I kinda like the challenge of only one hole awarding the feature. Many times it shoots from the lower hole and goes in the upper hole anyways. Thanks Mark for figuring out this problem.
    Todd
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