• Tech: Serial vs. Parallel Flipper Coils

    From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Monday, December 28, 2020 18:34:08
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    Revisiting this old thread: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ

    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like 23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From cfhatprovidedotnet@cfh@provide.net to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 04:31:21
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ

    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like 23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 10:12:14
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ >>
    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS switch
    shorts out the hold coil. When it opens up, both the power and hold
    coils are connected. When the flipper switch is released, both windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across both - is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the power
    coil. On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released, the
    separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500. The obvious
    difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both coils to
    the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the center and
    hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center. Power to the left and
    hold to the right. Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but they
    never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).

    I looked at a Gorgar. Williams supposedly used serial coils. It is a 19-400/30-750. It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in that the
    power connections are left/center and the hold is center/right. A
    single diode is on it. It is wired just like the early Bally, with the
    EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From seymour.shabow@seymour.shabow@gmail.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 11:09:03
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    LexingtonVAPin wrote:

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).



    They are, I unwound one to find that out. The primary flip circuit is
    in the center and the hold is around it. They have 2 diodes on them as
    well.

    Now, when williams came up with advertising "parallel wound" coils, they
    might have referred to the coils having both the primary and hold coils
    being wound in parallel at the core, vs. having all of the flip coil
    then the hold coil windings within each other - this would help with
    heat dissipation I'd think.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From seymour.shabow@seymour.shabow@gmail.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 11:36:54
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    seymour.shabow wrote:
    LexingtonVAPin wrote:

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but
    they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).



    They are, I unwound one to find that out. The primary flip circuit is
    in the center and the hold is around it. They have 2 diodes on them as well.

    Now, when williams came up with advertising "parallel wound" coils, they might have referred to the coils having both the primary and hold coils being wound in parallel at the core, vs. having all of the flip coil
    then the hold coil windings within each other - this would help with
    heat dissipation I'd think.

    ...although I haven't unwound one of the WMS parallel coils yet
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 09:40:03
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ >>>

    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so>>> only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS switch
    shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power and hold
    coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is released, both windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across both - is needed.>
    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released, the separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious > difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both coils to
    the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the center and
    hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the left and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).

    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It is a 19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in that the
    power connections are left/center and the hold is center/right.  A
    single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the early Bally, with the
    EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ

    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on the plunger
    giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.
    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two wires
    to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate. This is the
    common for the parallel coils...
    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle lug.
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 13:20:35
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/29/20 11:09 AM, seymour.shabow wrote:
    LexingtonVAPin wrote:

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but
    they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).



    They are, I unwound one to find that out.  The primary flip circuit is
    in the center and the hold is around it.  They have 2 diodes on them as well.

    Now, when williams came up with advertising "parallel wound" coils, they might have referred to the coils having both the primary and hold coils being wound in parallel at the core, vs. having all of the flip coil
    then the hold coil windings within each other - this would help with
    heat dissipation I'd think.

    So what physically makes it "parallel". Winding the power coil first completely across the core?
    Then winding the hold on top of the power winding?

    In early posts, it was said that the cap on the EOS and flipper switches reduce the spark only in parallel coils. Did Bally not know this?
    Should those games be retrofitted with caps?

    What makes the physical configuration of the coil require two diodes?
    It seems that the two diodes are really only required when the two
    windings are shut off at different times. That occurs depending on how
    the EOS is wired to the coil.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 13:25:04
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/29/20 12:40 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin wrote: >>>> Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ


    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys >>>> 6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold >>>> coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through? >>>>
    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both >>>> the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS switch
    shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power and hold
    coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is released, both
    windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across both -
    is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the
    power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially
    powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released, the
    separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious
    difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both coils
    to the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the center
    and hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the left
    and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but
    they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of).

    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It is a
    19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in that the
    power connections are left/center and the hold is center/right.  A
    single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the early Bally, with
    the EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ


    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on the plunger giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.

    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two wires
    to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate. This is the common for the parallel coils...

    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle lug.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John. I posted before I saw your reply.

    If that is true, then the early Bally coils are serial, not parallel.
    But Scott unwound a Bally coil and found it to be parallel.

    [I am still not certain what physically determines parallel vs. serial.
    I don't have handy old coils to unwind them - I recycled them.]

    What keeps a serial coil from being wired to an EOS switch so that 'both windings are on at the same time'? Will the magnetic fields of the two windings work against each other?

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 10:44:39
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/12/29 10:25 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 12:40 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin wrote: >>>>> Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ


    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire >>>>> 2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams Sys >>>>> 6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the >>>>> hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way
    through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both >>>>> the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so >>>>> only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS switch
    shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power and hold
    coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is released, both >>> windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across both -
    is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the
    power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially
    powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released, the
    separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious
    difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both coils
    to the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the center
    and hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the left
    and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but
    they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware of). >>>
    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It is
    a 19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in that
    the power connections are left/center and the hold is center/right. >>> A single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the early Bally, with
    the EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ


    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game
    applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on the
    plunger giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.

    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two
    wires to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate. This
    is the common for the parallel coils...

    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle lug.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I posted before I saw your reply.

    If that is true, then the early Bally coils are serial, not parallel.
    But Scott unwound a Bally coil and found it to be parallel.

    [I am still not certain what physically determines parallel vs. serial.
     I don't have handy old coils to unwind them - I recycled them.]

    What keeps a serial coil from being wired to an EOS switch so that 'both windings are on at the same time'?   Will the magnetic fields of the two windings work against each other?

    Parallel means just that - the two fields work together in parallel as
    long as they are wound in the same direction.
    John:-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 13:56:29
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/29/20 1:44 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 10:25 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 12:40 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin
    wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ


    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire >>>>>> 2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel? >>>>>>
    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial? Williams >>>>>> Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the >>>>>> hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way
    through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping >>>>>> both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so >>>>>> only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS
    switch shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power
    and hold coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is released,
    both windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across
    both - is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the
    power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially
    powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released,
    the separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious
    difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both
    coils to the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the
    center and hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the left
    and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but
    they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware
    of).

    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It is >>>> a 19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in that
    the power connections are left/center and the hold is center/right.
    A single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the early Bally,
    with the EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ


    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game
    applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on
    the plunger giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.

    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two
    wires to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate.
    This is the common for the parallel coils...

    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle lug.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I posted before I saw your reply.

    If that is true, then the early Bally coils are serial, not parallel.
    But Scott unwound a Bally coil and found it to be parallel.

    [I am still not certain what physically determines parallel vs.
    serial.   I don't have handy old coils to unwind them - I recycled them.] >>
    What keeps a serial coil from being wired to an EOS switch so that
    'both windings are on at the same time'?   Will the magnetic fields of
    the two windings work against each other?


    Parallel means just that - the two fields work together in parallel as
    long as they are wound in the same direction.

    John:-#)#


    That makes sense. So if they were both on at the same time, they would
    not work together if they are serial. The magnetic field would be weakened.

    How can one tell when unwinding it? Would they be wound in opposite directions? What physically determines if the two coils magnetic fields
    would be additive?

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From John Robertson@spam@flippers.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 12:36:27
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 2020/12/29 10:56 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 1:44 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 10:25 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 12:40 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin
    wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ


    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or>>>>>>> parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire >>>>>>> 2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel? >>>>>>>
    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are >>>>>>> parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial?
    Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and
    the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way
    through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power>>>>>>> winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping >>>>>>> both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse
    simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS
    switch shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power >>>>> and hold coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is released, >>>>> both windings collapse at the same time, so only one diode - across >>>>> both - is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the >>>>> power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially
    powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is
    required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released,
    the separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious
    difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both
    coils to the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the >>>>> center and hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the left >>>>> and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil, but >>>>> they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am aware >>>>> of).

    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It >>>>> is a 19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in
    that the power connections are left/center and the hold is
    center/right. A single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the
    early Bally, with the EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ


    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game
    applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on
    the plunger giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.

    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two
    wires to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate.
    This is the common for the parallel coils...

    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle lug. >>>>
    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I posted before I saw your reply.

    If that is true, then the early Bally coils are serial, not parallel.
    But Scott unwound a Bally coil and found it to be parallel.

    [I am still not certain what physically determines parallel vs.
    serial.   I don't have handy old coils to unwind them - I recycled
    them.]

    What keeps a serial coil from being wired to an EOS switch so that
    'both windings are on at the same time'?   Will the magnetic fields
    of the two windings work against each other?


    Parallel means just that - the two fields work together in parallel as
    long as they are wound in the same direction.

    John:-#)#


    That makes sense.  So if they were both on at the same time, they would
    not work together if they are serial.  The magnetic field would be weakened.

    How can one tell when unwinding it?   Would they be wound in opposite directions?  What physically determines if the two coils magnetic fields would be additive?

    It took electronic flipper control to be additive and thus parallel wound.
    The whole series/parallel is a bit of a trick. You still have in essence one large continuous run of wire with a connection.
    You could wire the coil with the Power at the centre terminal on older
    coils and have the EOS open the power winding and the hold winding would always be on when the button is pressed. Might work out to slightly more power - or not. All coils are wound the same direction, so the windings
    are parallel...
    Series coil
    ----/\/\/\---|---/\/\/\-|---
    |----||----| (EOS)
    Parallel coil
    ----|----/\/\/\---||-|--- (EOS or transistor)
    |----/\/\/\------|
    That's as good as my ASCII drawing gets...the left connection is the
    power (or ground through the flipper switch) and the right lead is
    ground through the flipper switch (or power). No diodes 'cause I'm lazy... Clear?
    John :-#)#
    --
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
    John's Jukes Ltd.
    MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3
    (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
    www.flippers.com
    "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, December 30, 2020 16:22:47
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/29/20 3:36 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 10:56 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 1:44 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 10:25 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 12:40 PM, John Robertson wrote:
    On 2020/12/29 7:12 a.m., LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/29/20 7:31 AM, cfhatprovidedotnet wrote:
    easiest way is to look at the diode. if there's two diodes,
    it's parallel wound. if there's one diode, it's serial wound.
    All EM flipper coils (no diode) that i have ever encountered
    are serial wound.

    On Monday, December 28, 2020 at 6:34:18 PM UTC-5, LexingtonVAPin >>>>>>> wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ


    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or >>>>>>>> parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like >>>>>>>> 23/600-30/2600. That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 >>>>>>>> wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel? >>>>>>>>
    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are >>>>>>>> parallel. Aren't there always four wires, even if serial?
    Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and >>>>>>>> the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way >>>>>>>> through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power >>>>>>>> winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens -
    keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse
    simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/

    That is what I always thought too.

    In looking at how these coils are wired, in one setup, the EOS
    switch shorts out the hold coil.  When it opens up, both the power >>>>>> and hold coils are connected.  When the flipper switch is
    released, both windings collapse at the same time, so only one
    diode - across both - is needed.

    In the newer setup, the EOS switch is connected in series with the >>>>>> power coil.  On the flip, both power and hold coils are initially >>>>>> powered.
    When the EOS opens, the power coil is disconnected and a diode is >>>>>> required for the back EMF.
    The hold coil stays powered. When the flipper switch is released, >>>>>> the separate diode is required for the hold coil.

    I am looking at two coils: 11630 and 25-500/34-4500.  The obvious >>>>>> difference between the two is that the 11630 is wired with both
    coils to the left lug (viewed from the plunger side), power to the >>>>>> center and hold to the right.
    With the other coil, two wires go to the center.  Power to the
    left and hold to the right.  Both coils have two diodes.

    The 25-500/34-4500 is used in a Bally could be a parallel coil,
    but they never used a cap on the EOS or flipper switch (that I am >>>>>> aware of).

    I looked at a Gorgar.  Williams supposedly used serial coils.  It >>>>>> is a 19-400/30-750.  It looks exactly like the 25-500/34-4500 in >>>>>> that the power connections are left/center and the hold is
    center/right. A single diode is on it.  It is wired just like the >>>>>> early Bally, with the EOS shorting out the hold coil.

    What makes a coil serial vs parallel?

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmRDZk

    https://flic.kr/p/2kmR5eZ


    The advantage a parallel wound coil has over serial is the game
    applies current to both windings at the same time - so both act on
    the plunger giving you a bit more power for the same size windings.

    An easy way you tell if you have a parallel coil is there are two
    wires to an outside lug - the same lug that two diodes terminate.
    This is the common for the parallel coils...

    A serial coil has the lug with two windings attached as the middle
    lug.

    John :-#)#

    Thanks John.  I posted before I saw your reply.

    If that is true, then the early Bally coils are serial, not
    parallel. But Scott unwound a Bally coil and found it to be parallel.

    [I am still not certain what physically determines parallel vs.
    serial.   I don't have handy old coils to unwind them - I recycled
    them.]

    What keeps a serial coil from being wired to an EOS switch so that
    'both windings are on at the same time'?   Will the magnetic fields >>>> of the two windings work against each other?


    Parallel means just that - the two fields work together in parallel
    as long as they are wound in the same direction.

    John:-#)#


    That makes sense.  So if they were both on at the same time, they
    would not work together if they are serial.  The magnetic field would
    be weakened.

    How can one tell when unwinding it?   Would they be wound in opposite
    directions?  What physically determines if the two coils magnetic
    fields would be additive?


    It took electronic flipper control to be additive and thus parallel wound.

    The whole series/parallel is a bit of a trick. You still have in essence
    one large continuous run of wire with a connection.

    You could wire the coil with the Power at the centre terminal on older
    coils and have the EOS open the power winding and the hold winding would always be on when the button is pressed. Might work out to slightly more power - or not. All coils are wound the same direction, so the windings
    are parallel...

    Series coil

    ----/\/\/\---|---/\/\/\-|---
                 |----||----|  (EOS)

    Parallel coil

    ----|----/\/\/\---||-|--- (EOS or transistor)
        |----/\/\/\------|

    That's as good as my ASCII drawing gets...the left connection is the
    power (or ground through the flipper switch) and the right lead is
    ground through the flipper switch (or power). No diodes 'cause I'm lazy...

    Clear?

    John :-#)#


    Great ASCII drawings. Thanks John. Reminds me of my first computer
    terminal games.

    I wish I had not recycled my burned out coils. I need to do an autopsy
    myself on 'parallel' and 'series' coils to see what the difference is in construction.

    Scott said 'The primary flip circuit is in the center and the hold is
    around it.'

    That is what I imagined the construction parallel coils. Not certain
    what the construction is for serial.

    Also not certain why two diodes are used on early Bally if the power and
    hold windings lose power at the same time. And why not add caps if the
    Bally is truly parallel.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From seymour.shabow@seymour.shabow@gmail.com to rec.games.pinball on Saturday, January 02, 2021 11:44:14
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    LexingtonVAPin wrote:

    That is what I imagined the construction parallel coils. Not certain
    what the construction is for serial.


    I should take apart a serial one and see. I assumed perhaps incorrectly
    that it was a tap-type situation and the same wire bundle, where the
    thicker wire was still in the center and used for the power stroke, then
    the thinner wire attaches to that coil's endpoint to add into it for the
    hold coil. I dislike ruining good parts even in the name of science though.

    Also not certain why two diodes are used on early Bally if the power and hold windings lose power at the same time. And why not add caps if the Bally is truly parallel.


    2 coils collapsing in 2 different endpoints=needs 2 diodes to block
    voltage I would assume.

    The spark suppression argument I remember from long ago, along with the
    Clay video showing the differences and I remember not really noticing any.
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Thursday, January 07, 2021 11:18:36
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 1/2/21 11:44 AM, seymour.shabow wrote:
    Also not certain why two diodes are used on early Bally if the power
    and hold windings lose power at the same time.  And why not add caps
    if the Bally is truly parallel.


    2 coils collapsing in 2 different endpoints=needs 2 diodes to block
    voltage I would assume.

    I think that early Bally and Williams flippers were wired the same way:
    EOS switch shorts out the Hold coil. EOS switch opens and both Hold and
    Power are energized. Flipper button releases and both coils collapse at
    the same time.

    One diode should be sufficient, unless there is something about winding
    them differently that would require a second diode?

    The Bally schematics seem to confirm the EOS Switch shorting out a
    (hold) winding. So do early Williams SS. Both drawings make the coil
    look like there is a center tap of a transformer.

    Marco lists EB flipper coil as 25-500/34-5050.

    Bally Strange Science 6803 shows a 0.05 cap on the flipper switch. It
    shows a 0.01 cap on the EOS switch. Two diodes on the coil. EOS switch
    shorts out a (hold) winding. Marco lists the flipper coil as
    24-570/34-3600.

    Jumping to a FP2, when Williams upgraded the power supply, they show the
    same flipper schematic, with a the EOS switch shorting half the flipper
    coil. No cap is present on any of the EOS switches.

    Williams HS does not show the presence of a cap on the parts list of the flipper. The schematic shows a cap on the flipper switch but not the
    EOS switch. Schematic indicates EOS switch still shorts out the Hold
    winding. Coil looks like a center tap. Coil is 23/600 - 30/2600.

    F14 shows a cap on the EOS switch and flipper switch. Flipper schematic
    shows a different connection with the EOS switch removing the Power coil
    from the circuit. Coils are drawn as two separate coils (no 'center
    tap') Hold is always on. Coil is 11630.

    I too, don't want to sacrifice a good coil. Would like an early Bally
    SS coil, early Williams SS coil and a later Williams WPC era.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Tuesday, January 12, 2021 11:34:42
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 12/28/20 6:34 PM, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ

    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like 23/600-30/2600.   That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire 2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel.  Aren't there always four wires, even if serial?  Williams Sys
    6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the hold
    coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.


    I have been converting an EBD to WPC style flippers. I did this because
    I am moving the relatively new linear flippers to a Kings of Steel. And because I wanted to try doing this.

    I don't know if this helps at all but:

    Linear flippers - no cap on EOS:

    https://youtu.be/78VVc8Vqz-E

    WPC style flippers with caps:

    https://youtu.be/Q-JN2tVaM0Y

    This is the linear upper flipper in EBD. No cap:

    https://youtu.be/OuXGx-AH9w4

    I added a cap to the existing linear flipper:

    https://youtu.be/aID5tXysjUg

    This is the same linear flipper, no cap, slow motion:

    https://youtu.be/Mj49Eu_dZEk

    The same linear flipper, with cap, slow motion. At first, no arcing.
    Then after a few flips, arcing occurs:

    https://youtu.be/GjwnfehkE8g

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113
  • From LexingtonVAPin@lhammer610@yahoo.com to rec.games.pinball on Wednesday, January 13, 2021 18:24:13
    From Newsgroup: rec.games.pinball

    On 1/12/21 11:34 AM, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    On 12/28/20 6:34 PM, LexingtonVAPin wrote:
    Revisiting this old thread:
    https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.pinball/c/7w_ylCWpvHo/m/sPUKBGMuEAAJ >>

    I am trying to figure out how to tell whether a coil is serial or
    parallel (without unwinding it).

    Early flipper coils had part numbers that were descriptive like
    23/600-30/2600.   That would indicate #23 wire 600 turns, and #30 wire
    2600 turns.

    Since they are two different diameter wires, aren't they parallel?

    One person said that if there are four different wires, they are
    parallel.  Aren't there always four wires, even if serial?  Williams
    Sys 6 Firepower looks like two different diameter wires.

    Are parallel coils wound with the power coil on the inside and the
    hold coil on the outside?

    Serial are wound from one end to the other with a tap part way through?

    The only thing I can tell is that later pins disconnect the power
    winding (hence the two diodes).
    The earlier ones short out the hold winding, then opens - keeping both
    the hold and power energized. Both fields collapse simultaneously, so
    only one diode needed.


    I have been converting an EBD to WPC style flippers.  I did this because
    I am moving the relatively new linear flippers to a Kings of Steel.  And because I wanted to try doing this.

    I don't know if this helps at all but:

    Linear flippers - no cap on EOS:

    https://youtu.be/78VVc8Vqz-E

    WPC style flippers with caps:

    https://youtu.be/Q-JN2tVaM0Y

    This is the linear upper flipper in EBD.  No cap:

    https://youtu.be/OuXGx-AH9w4

    I added a cap to the existing linear flipper:

    https://youtu.be/aID5tXysjUg

    This is the same linear flipper, no cap, slow motion:

    https://youtu.be/Mj49Eu_dZEk

    The same linear flipper, with cap, slow motion.  At first, no arcing.
    Then after a few flips, arcing occurs:

    https://youtu.be/GjwnfehkE8g

    I made an error. The upper left flipper is not linear. It has been
    modified to the 05/1975-04/1980 style.

    --
    http://orcalcoast.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.18a-Linux NewsLink 1.113